Ben
My feedback
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364 votesUnder Review ·
AdminPatrick Palmer
(Director of Product Management, Pro Video and Motion Design, Adobe DVA)
responded
All,
first of all I wanted to thank everyone for making this a productive conversation over the last couple of days.
As several people responded to my comment about keeping the tone civilised, I need to dwell on that for a minute. Please hear me out, this is important to everyone on my crew and I hope it will be to you.
Saying that we shouldn't be surprised when things get heated is very problematic in my opinion. How do you expect a junior person on my team to respond to a technical question when it is combined with something that can easily be described as hate speech? How do you think we can actually come together on actual issues when there's already the assumption that we're a big faceless corporation, not even listening to our customers?
People on my team have received threats. I've been there over the years,…
An error occurred while saving the comment An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
@Joe D We’re about to do the same and it seems Adobe are happy for pros to migrate.
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
@Antoine ‘The old window wasn’t perfect too’
Nobody expects perfection. But in some areas, 40 years of established UX convention (because it’s most efficient) has been tossed out.
It seems many chalk this up to old dogs/new tricks but nothing could be further than the truth - we’re pros, we’re learning new techniques, new features and new software all the time - it’s a core competency.
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commented
@Antoine “Let’s find a solution”
Countless people have pointed out obvious issues - frankly, all fixed by going back to the old windows.
The problem currently is that Adobe isn’t responding to the issues, and nor have they shown what specific problems the new windows solve. The whole thing is baffling.
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commented
@Antoine Autokroma.com (Independent Developer of AfterCodecs, BRAW Studio, PlumePack, Influx) commented
Which is a huge problem - right? We need a plug-in to make Premiere Pro professional again?
Truly mind-numbing sorry.
PS Sorry if there are multiple posts, internet is playing up.
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commented
@Antoine Autokroma.com (Independent Developer of AfterCodecs, BRAW Studio, PlumePack, Influx)
Quick export is where this kind of thinking should’ve ended, great for newbies and occasional users.
And asking ‘What else do you need?’ encapsulates the entire problem: Adobe and seemingly some of it’s partners have no clue.
So now we either live with Premiere becoming oversimplified or switch. The writing is on the wall, what a bummer.
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commented
@Pierre Louis Beranek
Agreed. The frustration/anger expressed stems from a genuine worry that either;
1) Adobe is making Premiere into a light product for graphic designers
OR
2) Adobe has lost its way, which is why Premiere is so far behind the competition - and getting worse.
OR
3) For a variety of reasons (agile development, poor beta testers, laziness) lower-quality UX ideas have been pushed out for release.
We're all waiting for Adobe to clarify what exactly the new windows fix (new doc and export).
As one example of many, the way the file path drop-down works in the new doc window is jaw-droppingly bad and proves beyond all doubt that the people involved had no clue. It's so clumsy and time-consuming, it's like using a port of a Linux app. No joke.
It really leaves you wondering what the heck is going on over there, which circles back to switching to a competitor, which circles back to time and money, which circles back to frustration and anger.
At this point, the next release is about proving they understand the basics, not a great place to be compared to the competition.
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
@Rob Eggleston
But some of us have discovered that Compressor is far superior both in terms of quality and speed, not to mention Resolve! If Adobe were going to spend dev budget on exporting, why wasn't speed at the top of the list? It benefits everyone - right?
After weeks of this, I'm still genuinely confused about priorities and I freely admit that I don't understand the issues new users have so I don't feel it's 'my way or the high way'.
But quality work delivers improvements for everyone and despite what proponents of agile development espouse, quality work doesn't start with throwing out past lessons to reset everything.
That's the core mistake here - start again and see who complains. Bummer.
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
@Patrick
"I'm looking at thousands of data points from well over 3 years, and they're simply telling a different story than this thread."
That's right, because most people are pointer & clickers. But many of us have spent careers steering the majority away from inefficient practices, mainly so they can get a pay rise.
Don't fall victim to 'the research told us XYZ'. It takes leadership to balance research from the masses, with production realities: speed, consistency and efficiency. Yes, I know that's hard to hear so I feel for you!
But the philosophy & implementation behind these new screens have unfortunately laid bare a harsh reality, that Adobe no longer understands production fundamentals and that we're supposed to make the case for speed, consistency and efficiency moving forward.
Sure, there's always room for improvement and we all make mistakes but up until now, I'd never worried that Adobe hadn't understood production ethos.
This leaves many wondering what this means for the future? Hence all the angst.
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
Thanks @Patrick some specific comments...
"As for triggering the export with a keyboard shortcut: CMD + Enter does that for you."
But why isn't it Enter like every other app? And why can't you hit 'CMD + .' to cancel? This is what I mean't when you don't use OS-native windows - you absolutely have to put back all the shortcuts we use across scores of apps every day (including all the other Adobe apps - you're part of a suite right?).
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"As for not remembering the last chosen preset: the last preset will be used again as long as it's from the same sequence."
Agreed, I think I'd duplicated a sequence or maybe it was a new one but regardless, why doesn't the preset drop-down (or all of them) accept keyboard entry? And why isn't that on a list of mandatories that's used to ensure a high level of consistency across all Adobe apps when new features are introduced? This stuff makes us truly wonder what is going on over there and what the future holds.
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"On Codecs and Formats: the previous interface is paying tribute to 30 years of evolution in going digital. The new one is making an attempt to rationalise it - and as I've stated already, for a lot of users that's worked well enough for us to put this in front of you."
Sure but I've hired 2 Adobe beta testers over the years and both were 'pointers and clickers' which explained a lot. And as noted a above, common UI interactions have been removed - right? Even the full screen nature creates mouse work. Don't believe me? Try arranging all palette/tools to the right in Photoshop, InDesign and Illustrator, then work that way for a week. If you switch back, you'll be amazed at how much extra work is required to move from one side of the screen to the other to go from tools to palettes (and I only use a 27").
It doesn't seem your designers understand these sorts of basics when it comes to large monitors - I'm sure I'm not the only one to point out something similar with regard to these new screens?
It's the same with that full-screen project window and if you ever try to close it, it quits Premiere? In that way, it's like an enormous website pop-up - I didn't initiate it and I can't control it. Do you understand how frustrating a lack of control is when it comes to these sorts of newbie features? We need to be able to get rid of stuff if needed - that newbie/pro balance.
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"On Adobe Stock: we don't have any ads for Stock in the product afaik."
If I click that blue 'New Project' button from that full-sized project tab, the important stuff (name/location) is way-off in the top-left of the screen and I'm shown stock footage of some kind?
EDIT:
It's sample footage but it's so large it dominates the task at hand (name/location) hence the confusion sorry.Regardless, is an OS-native New Document window really so bad? It focuses you on the task at hand (naming/saving) and all the OS-native shortcuts work. Again, I can't use 'CMD .' to cancel it and don't you find navigating the file system via that silly dropdown truly diabolical?
Is this really Adobe's idea of an improvement? Our jaws hit the floor when we experience these kind of 'improvements'. We wonder how this stuff ever makes it into a release - yes, it's that bad! And you understand why - right?
That's why many of us avoid that welcome screen thing but we can't get rid of it. Why is removing focus, consistency, speed and shortcuts a good thing?
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"However, it is a source for enough customers to make that a useful addition to the product."
Absolutely but only when I'm looking for footage - right? Not when I'm trying to name and save files which is foundational for good studio organisation. Context is still important too - right?
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"On the performance comment: is that specific to the new screens?"
Absolutely it is and if you don't understand why, that's perhaps the biggest problem of all! Why isn't every dollar being spent on performance and bug fixes for the next 6 months at least? You guys are WAY behind the competition - no?
Many of us have been watching performance for years and everyone I know who switched to Resolve, did so primarily because of performance.
We're not switching to Resolve because of its tab-flow interface or it's proprietary project and footage management system, we're switching in spite of it. Mainly to get a HUGE gain in performance which either makes us more money, or gives us more free time.
I truly hope this makes sense and is not seen as old dogs/new tricks (as it's often characterised). I've got no problem learning new stuff, I spend around 10-15% of my time doing just that - or much more when considering a switch.
Cheers, Ben
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
Sorry @patrick but it seems you guys are forgetting that software needs both easy access for newbies, AND full keyboard control for pros. The 'tone' you reference is simply shock, then frustration that you've decided to choose one over the other.
For example, you can't even hit enter to trigger the export, isn't that one of the most basic interactions? And it's both weird and frustrating that we're now supposed to 'work together' to add back the most basic interactions - right? Is it laziness, low quality work, or agile development? it's a real head scratcher.
And presets are great if doing the same thing every day so YMMV but the new screen doesn't seem to remember the last preset, and you can't even use keyboard entry in the new preset drop-down (or any drop-down). Again, isn't this stuff so basic that frustration is justified - or at least understandable? Because not understanding basic interaction is a huge problem from our point of view.
And yes, codecs/formats/exporting is all confusing depending on your experience but that's a huge part of the job - right? However, some of these screens seem more confusing because they now advertise products like Adobe Stock. So there's obviously competing motivations - right?
But perhaps most confusing, is that Premiere is hugely down on performance, so it's difficult understanding the time spent on these new screens.
As result, I'll definitely be continuing my migration to Resolve, even though their disk database system is utterly stupid for users not running a Postgres server (i.e. 90% of users). That's how much you guys have fallen behind. It really is a bummer but it sounds like you know the market you want.
Cheers and thanks for taking the time to clarify Adobe's position.
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
If you're looking for more info, here's some context for why these sorts of feature approaches don't work (Export, New Project screen etc).
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1. PLATFORM-AGNOSTIC FEATURES BREAK DAILY WORKFLOWS
When you replace OS-native dialogue boxes (open, save, new, import, export etc), OS-native shortcuts no longer work.Like on Mac...
- CMD D = Desktop
- CMD + SHIFT + C = Computer Root
- CMD + Down Arrow to go into a folder (in list view)
- CMD + Up arrow to go up a folder (in list view)
- Typing the first few letters of a folder name to select it
- Double-click a file to auto-name the new project with the name of the double-clicked file
- OS ways of viewing files (icon, column, list view) and the shortcutsThe reason this is so painful, is because you're breaking something we're doing 100s if not 1000s of times a day across multiple apps, including non-Adobe apps.
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2. YOU CAN'T TEACH OLD DOGS NEW TRICKS - RIGHT?
We're working professionals, learning new tricks is what we're doing all day. I'm currently learning Cinema 4D, natural interior lighting for stills and video, Fusion and Resolve.My head hurts and now I have to waste time learning basics I don't need to learn. Incredibly frustrating sorry.
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3. AGILE DEVELOPMENT SHOULDN'T BREAK BASIC UI INTERACTIONS
Remove everything, start again and see what people miss? I understand the appeal of Agile development from a dev point if view but leaving out basic UI interaction is infuriating sorry. With standard UI elements (e.g. selects) the world has collectively discovered the best ways to interact with them.But with these new project and export screens for example, we can't type the first few letters of items within selects. This interaction is so basic that it's often included in web design blog posts; Don't make these five form mistakes etc.
What message are you sending when finished features are shipped missing basic UI interactions? It's not a good one - right?
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4. PUSHING PRODUCTS WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO WORK
Take the new project screen for example, it shows Adobe stock when trying to name and navigate the file system (without shortcuts!).But stock footage has nothing to do with saving a project file, and the stock footage displayed also has nothing to do with my project.
We want to hit a few shortcuts and be done. If we want stock footage, we'll find some. It's a puzzling waste of resources and definitely not the 'cool stuff' we're looking for.
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5. CONSISTENCY IS ADOBE'S ADVANTAGE
We're subscribed to an eco-system of Adobe apps, so when OS file shortcuts don't work in one of the apps, you've broken Design 101 - consistency.For example, why not take the best pen/points/curve tool (Photoshop's is the best) and make creating vectors work identically across all apps? Premiere's pen tool is the worst BTW.
Or InDesign has the best asset management and packaging tools. Why don't all Adobe apps work the same way? Sure, there'll be app-specific differences but assets are still assets, they need importing, updating, exporting and packaging. 99% of the UX is done - right?
You're selling a consistent suite. Innovate but don't pull apart the basics or you'll remove the reasons we stick with Premiere. This isn't a ball and chain! It's the primary advantage of the leveraged brand strategy Adobe uses.
And millions of us agree, that's why we stick with Premiere, despite Resolve running rings around you, year after year.
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6. THE PROBLEM WITH PREMIERE RIGHT NOW
I'm not sure who thought the problem with Premiere was creating new documents and exporting them but I think I speak for most of us when I say the number one issue currently, is PERFORMANCE.An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
If you're looking for more info, here's some context for why these sorts of feature approaches don't work (Export, New Project screen etc).
----------------
1. PLATFORM-AGNOSTIC FEATURES BREAK DAILY WORKFLOWS
When you replace OS-native dialogue boxes (open, save, new, import, export etc), OS-native shortcuts no longer work.Like on Mac...
- CMD D = Desktop
- CMD + SHIFT + C = Computer Root
- CMD + Down Arrow to go into a folder (in list view)
- CMD + Up arrow to go up a folder (in list view)
- Typing the first few letters of a folder name to select it
- Double-click a file to auto-name the new project with the name of the double-clicked file
- OS ways of viewing files (icon, column, list view) and the shortcutsThe reason this is so painful, is because you're breaking something we're doing 100s if not 1000s fo times a day across multiple apps, including non-Adobe apps.
----------------
2. YOU CAN'T TEACH OLD DOGS NEW TRICKS - RIGHT?
We're working professionals, learning new tricks is what we're doing all day. I'm currently learning Cinema 4D, natural interior lighting for stills and video, Fusion and Resolve.My head hurts and now I have to waste time learning basics I don't need to learn. Incredibly frustrating sorry.
----------------
3. AGILE DEVELOPMENT SHOULDN'T BREAK BASIC UI INTERACTIONS
Remove everything, start again and see what people miss? I understand the appeal of Agile development from a dev point if view but leaving out basic UI interaction is infuriating sorry. With standard UI elements (e.g. selects) the world has collectively discovered the best ways to interact with them.But with these new project and export screens for example, we can't type the first few letters of items within selects. This interaction is so basic that it's often included in web design blog posts; Don't make these five form mistakes etc.
What message are you sending when finished features are shipped missing basic UI interactions? It's not a good one - right?
----------------
4. PUSHING PRODUCTS WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO WORK
Take the new project screen for example, it shows Adobe stock when trying to name and navigate the file system (without shortcuts!).But stock footage has nothing to do with saving a project file, and the stock footage displayed also has nothing to do with my project.
We want to hit a few shortcuts and be done. If we want stock footage, we'll find some. It's a puzzling waste of resources and definitely not the 'cool stuff' we're looking for.
----------------
5. CONSISTENCY IS ADOBE'S ADVANTAGE
We're subscribed to an eco-system of Adobe apps, so when OS file shortcuts don't work in one of the apps, you've broken Design 101 - consistency.For example, why not take the best pen/points/curve tool (Photoshop's is the best) and make creating vectors work identically across all apps? Premiere's pen tool is the worst BTW.
Or InDesign has the best asset management and packaging tools. Why don't all Adobe apps work the same way? Sure, there'll be app-specific differences but assets are still assets, they need importing, updating, exporting and packaging. 99% of the UX is done - right?
You're selling a consistent suite. Innovate but don't pull apart the basics or you'll remove the reasons we stick with Premiere. This isn't a ball and chain! It's the primary advantage of the leveraged brand strategy Adobe uses.
And millions of us agree, that's why we stick with Premiere, despite Resolve running rings around you, year after year.
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6. THE PROBLEM WITH PREMIERE RIGHT NOW
I'm not sure who thought the problem with Premiere was creating new documents and exporting them but I think I speak for most of us when I say the number one issue currently, is PERFORMANCE.Ben
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An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
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Voted plus more context from here: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro/suggestions/45118717-new-export-page-lots-of-problems-sorry
Not sure what the new export page is trying to achieve (we don't use Resolve because of its tabbed interface) but please fix the following...
1.
Allow keyboard entry in all drop-downs so we can hit 'q' for quicktime or the first letter of a custom preset for example.2.
Remember previous settings per timeline as per the previous export window. Again, why create extra work? UPDATE: I have one project which never remembers the last export setting but another which does. Maybe the one that doesn't was created in an older version but I'm not 100% if this is why.3.
The roll-ups/accordions are painful because you can't see both video and audio settings simultaneously - yet more pointing and clicking. Also, the vertical spacing on everything is too big, especially for laptops - which is why you've probably implemented accordions? We don't use Resolve because of it's large vertical spacing, it's a pain-point for many of us, especially when on the road.4.
It's great that 'Export' is now the primary button and not 'Send to Media Encoder'. However, hitting enter to export opens one of the settings dropdowns and doesn't export anything? If we see a big blue button, we expect enter to trigger it - right?5.
Several times now, the Range dropdown has set itself to 'Custom'. Not sure why, however I did notice that it had set itself to the previous video exported (20sec) when the new video was 15sec, thus rendering 5sec of black at the end. Not sure if this is a bug but I can't reliably replicate this.6.
If you're going to reset workflows (agile development?) please keep a running list of UI/UX standards so you implement new features in a quality way from the start. Otherwise, it just wastes so much of our time.Also, don't wait for up-votes, this stuff is so basic that it should be included from the beginning as a point of pride. You're Adobe - right? Not a start-up.
We need less pointing and clicking in general, not more!
Cheers
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51 votes
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237 votes
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
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And another request to have this fixed: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro/suggestions/45062362-the-new-export-screen-is-clumsy-bulky-and-requir
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
Voted plus another list of issues: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro/suggestions/45118717-new-export-page-lots-of-problems-sorry
Ben
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4 votes
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
Agreed, just added this as well: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro/suggestions/45186748-old-new-project-dialogue-much-faster-here-s-wh
Also, why doesn't CMD + N open a new project dialogue? There seems to be this endless obsession with getting us to point and click - why?
And because it seems that Adobe are constantly engaged in design by committee, unless stuff gets upvoted, nothing happens. Resolve looks better and better.
Ben
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5 votesBen
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191 votes
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
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Agreed, there should be a pref to use the location of the project file as the relative starting point for all import/export.
Ben
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5 votesBen
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15 votesBen
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An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
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+1 And it's been a long-time coming! And let's stop relying on scripts, this should be built-in.
When it comes to font and asset management, both Premiere and AfterEffects should take a leaf out of InDesign's book - which was the whole point of Create Suite (and now Creative Cloud). Consitency of experience - Right?
And here are some of the examples of similar requests:
https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911311-after-effects/suggestions/34288474-the-ability-to-choose-which-font-after-effects-use -
6 votesBen
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An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
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+1 And it's been a long-time coming! And let's stop relying on scripts, this should be built-in.
When it comes to font and asset management, both Premiere and AfterEffects should take a leaf out of InDesign's book - which was the whole point of Create Suite (and now Creative Cloud). Consitency of experience - Right?
And here are some of the examples of similar requests:
https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911311-after-effects/suggestions/34288474-the-ability-to-choose-which-font-after-effects-use -
17 votesBen
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An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
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+1 And it's been a long-time coming! And let's stop relying on scripts, this should be built-in.
When it comes to font and asset management, both Premiere and AfterEffects should take a leaf out of InDesign's book - which was the whole point of Create Suite (and now Creative Cloud). Consitency of experience - Right?
And here are some of the examples of similar requests:
https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911311-after-effects/suggestions/34288474-the-ability-to-choose-which-font-after-effects-use -
55 votes
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
+1 And it's been a long-time coming! And let's stop relying on scripts, this should be built-in.
When it comes to font and asset management, both Premiere and AfterEffects should take a leaf out of InDesign's book - which was the whole point of Create Suite (and now Creative Cloud). Consitency of experience - Right?
And here are some of the examples of similar requests:
https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911311-after-effects/suggestions/34288474-the-ability-to-choose-which-font-after-effects-useAn error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
This is a constant frustration if you have to work on files from other people.
We need all of the font find/replace options from InDesign - why force us to do this nonsense by hand? It's truly mind-numbing sorry.
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
@Rene Andritsch - Couldn't agree more, switching out any kind of asset (font, image, clip etc) should be as painless as possible.
Ben
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An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
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As above, InDesign does this beautifully but some apps lag way behind when it comes to asset management.
e.g. You own Trade Gothic Cond Bold, but not the same version that's been specified in the file you've received.
But the font the warning dialogue upon open offers no options to replace fonts. So now you have to open each pre-comp shown under 'Missing Fonts' and change the font in EVERY SINGLE LAYER one-at-a-time by hand.
The whole promise of CS Suite, and now CC, was to standardise features across apps, that's how long we've been waiting - decades.
It's 2019, we can do better right?
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4 votesBen
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16 votes
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
+1 This issue drives me nuts on a monthly basis sorry.
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
+1
Ben
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6 votesBen
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An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
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I can't believe there's no built-in shortcut to zoom-in to the selected clip.
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5 votes
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
I can't even believe there's no built-in shortcut to zoom in to the selected clip.
Ben
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11 votesBen
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An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
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I too have this issue intermittently. The workaround is to switch to a different layout, then switch back and click the mask in effect controls. Now the mask can be moved/edited.
Lot's of people complaining about this bug, here's a thread that goes back to 2016: https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2233115
Unacceptable.
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16 votesBen
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An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
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I too have this issue intermittently. The workaround is to switch to a different layout, then switch back and click the mask in effect controls. Now the mask can be moved/edited.
Lot's of people complaining about this bug, here's a thread that goes back to 2016: https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2233115
Unacceptable.
An error occurred while saving the comment Ben
commented
This is also an issue for me (and many others on forums). Switching to the 'Effects' workspace seems bring the handles back but it's frustrating. Please fix ASAP.
Personally, I'd be fine if Adobe said 'Hey, we got this one wrong'. But clearly Adobe feel they got this right which says a lot about the future.
Based on the lack of anything from Adobe, we're continuing our migration to Resolve. For all we know, weeding out pros is what Adobe wants.
Maybe it's time to actually read the writing on the wall?